- Interview conducted by Jeff McLeod with Steve Albini and Bob Weston - 03/98 -

How do you approach songwriting in Shellac?

(Steve Albini) Almost everything about Shellac is an experimental process. We don't generally "write songs" in the sense that one of us figures out how an entire song will go. Very few of our songs even have a definite arrangement that stays the same from day to day.

If there is a pattern, it is usually that one of us has a conceptual idea for a song, possibly with some skeletal associated music. The idea is experimented with (sometimes without playing a note) until a method of playing it surfaces. Then we play through the idea and see what it sounds like. Any germs of specific musical phrases usually appear at this time, or their absence is taken note-of.

Over time (usually several rehearsal periods, which can span many months) the idea becomes firmly rooted in all of our heads, until one day we can play the song as a single piece of music. Some of this experimentation takes place on stage, which forces us to make decisions on the spot, without too much deliberation. This is often where the best ideas come from.

Without seeing each other for months, we can each be mentally refining our conception of a song, or forming concrete reasons why we should abandon it.

Once we wrote a song on a plane trip ("Spoke"), and the first time we heard it was when we recorded it for a radio session. We could never get it to sound quite as good after that, and we abandoned it as an idea that had expressed itself already.

(Bob Weston) There is never a vocal mic at practice. The first time vocals are heard by the other members is either in the studio, or live at a show. I've heard Steve in the bathtub singing along with tapes of the instrumental practice versions of the songs. I know that he has a bunch of lyrics, and lyric ideas written down here and there. So, either these get fit into songs, or new words are written. Sometimes when we're working on a song, Steve has a notion about which lyrics he's going to try to fit in, and he'll tell us about them. When I write lyrics, it's at the last minute, in the studio, before they need to be sung.

What were the differences (if any) in preparation for Terraform and At Action Park?

(SA) At Action Park was essentially a recording of the songs we had been playing live at that point (excepting songs which had already been released on singles). Terraform was a collection of songs which were recorded, for the most part, as soon as we were comfortable with them. Some of them matured over time and were re-recorded in a later form.

What prompted the decision to record at Abbey Road?

(SA) I was familiar with the studio, and thought that its layout and technical standards were perfect for the way we like to record (essentially live), and I had gotten good results there before. We also got a crushing deal on some vacant time. I think Bob and Todd trusted my suggestion — which shows a lot of faith on their parts, since it seemed slightly preposterous on first thought.

(BW) I didn't find it preposterous at all. I mean: Abbey Road; The Beatles ? I was ecstatic. It was very exciting for me to record there in that same studio. In the end, I'm not sure quite how crushing the "deal" we got on studio time actually was.

What was the experience of recording your own band there like?

(SA) I enjoyed the general standard of the studio, but I wasn't thrilled with my mental state while we were there. I fell into periods of doubt that could have been very counter-productive if Bob and Todd (and John Loder, who helped us record it) hadn't been so intent and professional.

(BW) At times it was hard to concentrate. We had recorded some of the songs a few times already, and the attitude could go to: "enough already; lets just finish this once and for all". It was frustrating at times. We were starting to second guess our recording decisions. Or not pay enough attention because it had taken so long and we just wanted to finish. In the end, though, we didn't settle for anything that we weren't happy with, and I'm proud of the record.

What is the thinking behind writing a song like "Didn'T We Deserve A Look At You The Way You Really Are"?

(SA) The subject matter is in reference to a specific type of anti-socialite, who "paraded as a crazy bitch," reveling in her depravity. The suggestion is that this mode of behavior, while unpleasant, at least makes her memorable — a topic of conversation — and being overlooked is, to her, worse than being unpalatable. There is a moment of exposure, where the charade is forgotten for a moment, and the narrator is then curious about the nature of the person temporarily revealed. Not that there is necessarily a good woman hiding beneath the makeup, but that there is some kind of genuine personality lurking there. The question of the title is made from the idea that so many people have been paying attention to this trollop, that there is some kind of implied bargain: We have paid attention to you, so you owe us in return a chance to actually know you. Such expectations are never met, and the narrator's indignation probably precedes (immediately) his dismissal of the woman.

The music, I guess (although I never thought about it until now), mirrors the long frustration of the narrator, presented day after day with an impenetrable persona, until he thinks it will never change. While playing it, it is possible (and preferable) to completely forget that a show is underway, and get lost in the repetitive pattern until it starts to sound completely impossible. Say "Toy Boat" 10 times real fast, and you'll see how impossible something simple becomes, and how different it ends up.

How do you each view Shellac?

(SA) Shellac is my sole creative outlet, so I invest it with all my creative attention. It is not a full-time occupation, so we can all treat it as a luxury — something we do when allowed to by our regular routines. During the expansion of the rock music scene in the 90's, I saw a lot of my friends and acquaintances turn their passion for music into full-time jobs.

Eventually they all came to resent their bands the way I used to resent my job. The way we have it, I wouldn't have it any other way.

(BW) Each time we get together to play it is very exciting. We haven't played together in a while, so it's truly fun and invigorating. I love the way Steve and Todd play their instruments. I feel lucky to be able to play and create with them. I truly love the band.

On a related note, what are your views on the state of touring and being a true independent band these days as compared to when you were doing it with Big Black?

(SA) This sounds flippant, but everything is exactly the same, except the specific people we deal with. We still organize our own tours, we still deal almost exclusively with people we know and can trust (or who have been recommended to us by others we do), we still play mostly shows that are set-up outside the conventional circuits, we still try to play civilized shows with civilized door prices, and we still make money on every trip. There was a new generation of profiteers spawned by the inflation of the music scene referred-to above, and there are the same low-rent shysters lurking in the corners of every town's club scene, but we have never needed to deal with them, and we pity those who do.

Compare the pressures and day-to-day dealings of Shellac to those of a band like Oasis, for example.

(SA) Shellac doesn't have any day-to-day dealings. We work on a specific project (show, tour, recording, rehearsal period) at its natural pace, and that often means we don't do anything at all for months at a time, because we do all this stuff in the margins of our lives, which are day-to-day. I run a recording studio and engineer every day. Shellac, I can work on once in a while. Oasis, pity them, wake up every day being Oasis, and have to persist in the charade that they are "big in America."

What bands and musicians inspire your music?

(SA) Historically, I admire people who operated outside the buoyant climate of any particular scene and made their own mark. Conlan Nancarrow, Alvin Lucier, Hank Williams, MC5, The Stooges, Third World War, ZZ Top, AC/DC, Ramones, Silver Apples, Chrome, Kraftwerk, Pere Ubu, Television, Throbbing Gristle, PiL, Rudimentary Peni, Mission of Burma, Flipper, DAF, Metal Urbain, the Contortions, the Birthday Party, Mekons, Didjits, Effigies, Naked Raygun, the Ex, the Nig Heist, Breadwinner, David Yow, Fugazi, los Crudos, Silkworm, Dianogah, August Sons, Palace, Brick Layer Cake, the Dead C, Smog, I could go on all night.

(BW) Many of above, plus: Scrawl, Chavez, Slint, Dinosaur, Thinking Fellers, Pavement, my bloody Valentine, Gastr del Sol, Neil Young, Gary Numan, PJ Harvey, Minutemen, I could go on all night.

What bands and musicians do you find repulsive?

(SA) Surrounded as I am by music, being repulsed by any of it would be unbearable. I have taught myself to ignore that which might otherwise repulse me. If there were a computer that could take what I hate most about contemporary pop music (superficiality as an end to itself, self-satisfied appropriation of other peoples' ideas, knee-jerk stylistic fence-jumping and an innate artificiality) and use that data to create music, the music that came out would sound exactly like Beck.

Please elaborate on whether you prefer performing live with Shellac or working in the studio.

(SA) I like playing live more than just about anything else I ever do, so I guess I like it better than recording, but I don't mind recording. The best thing about playing live is feeling that you're part of a big communal experiment that involves the band and the audience as participants. I'm always curious what's going to happen, and when I am surprised, I am delighted.

What would you say to a major record label trying to snag your band? Has this ever happened? If so, how did you handle it?

(SA) "Snag" wouldn't be the word for it. At the time Big Black was approached (by EMI, RCA, and maybe another one), the likelihood of commercial success was so small that nobody was taking it seriously, either the bands or the labels. I just told whomever I was on the phone with that we weren't interested, and they never persisted. If they had called when I made my first cassette (while I was still totally naive), the way they do it now, I probably would have signed the first thing that walked through the door. For that reason I can't fault all the totally inexperienced kids who sign oppressive deals right out of the gate — they don't know any better. I can (and do) fault the music business scum who prey on them, and who know exactly what time it is.

What are your thoughts on uncommercial music? What do you think about complete noise artists like Merzbow, etc.

(SA) Well, Merzbow has released many records and toured the world. Hardly "uncommercial." When I think of "uncommercial" music, I think of those guys who play buckets in courtyards, or bands trapped in the frat party circuit selling their CDs in university book stores, or the aging hippie who has a collection of his songs accompanied by ukulele and squeezebox for sale at the craft fair. That's uncommercial. If you mean non-tonal music, some of it (like Merzbow) can be really invigorating. Some of it can be as trivial as the Spice Girls or Alanis.

What do you think about the popularity of rap and all its related splinter groups?

(SA) The same way I felt about poodle-metal and its spin-offs. The same way I feel about Muzak. It means nothing to me. I never listen to it by choice, and if it's on in the background, I don't even hear it. At the moment, it is the dominant mode of commercial pop music. It is used for soap commercials and talking teddy bears. Its persistent claims to underground status and "street" culture are preposterous on their faces.

(BW) I feel the same as I do about "rock" or "classical": I like certain bands / songs / records, and dislike others. This is not dependent on their category in the record store. I truly enjoy the first 3 public Enemy LPs and the last 3 Beastie Boys LPs.

If you could stand back and look at Shellac historically, comparing it to what you've done with Big Black and Rapeman, how do you feel about what you've done so far?

(SA) We haven't embarrassed ourselves yet. I hope not to. Like I said, it's an experiment. It could go "poof" at any time, or we could blow an oil seal and waste a long time in the pits.

What are your plans for Shellac?

(SA) To continue the experiment. If it starts to feel like we've exhausted the vein we're working currently, I think we have the presence of mind to keep quiet about it until we have something of substance to contribute.

Personally, I think it is very unlikely we will ever "break up" the way most bands do, since we don't have any of the pressures that cause bands to get disgusted with their place in the world. If we get fed up, we may go deep underground for a while, but right now, I don't feel the need. The least noble way for a band to go out is to cling to its position, like a 45-year-old pitcher, throwing knuckleballs and spitters just to stay in the show another season. If we aren't having much luck with the experiment, we'll just keep quiet a while until things come around.